Discussion:
Buddhism and Sufism
(too old to reply)
Gileht.com
2003-09-24 01:32:48 UTC
Permalink
A VOID IN FANA - Buddhism and Sufism
http://tooting.webspace.fish.co.uk/inter/



Though Islamic Sufism and different forms of Buddhist philosophy have come into contact there seems little direct mention on this interaction from the Moslem side. Under Islamic influence any reference to a non-theistic spiritual doctrine might be considered contrary to Koranic precept. Sufism is now renewing that acquaintance. (i.e. see article above)



Any interest in the means to knowledge should be aware of the diversity of mystical doctrine.

· The Sufi assertion of Divine Love and the preparation of Grace through a fundamental change in attitude and practise is different to the Buddhist emphasis. (i.e. Through God's Grace)

· The Buddhist primary source of knowledge resides in the self. The Buddhist assurance that each person is responsible for their own enlightenment has created a person orientated scheme. The realisation of the Buddha was achieved independently and is realisable by all whose desire for truth is sincere and single minded. This potential understanding is free from the grace of any deity. (i.e. NOT through God's Grace: but through wholesome practices in Hinayana; and through love, compassion for others and Bodhicitta in Mahayana; and through bliss in Tantrayana.)



In order to compare these two mystical systems we must state what each is:

· Sufism is the process of awakening, supplanting, growing and sustaining the sacred in the individual. (i.e. Rediscovering our inseparability with God)

· Buddhism is the recognition of individual limitation and the means and process of overcoming our unsatisfactory state without recourse to divinity. In Buddhism God does not have to come into the equation ever. (i.e. No merging with God but a personal Liberation in Hinayana; and rediscovering our Buddha-nature in Mahayana and Tantrayana. And here there is a form of oneness used as a skilful means.)

· In essence this is true of Sufism when it transcends the theocentric (God centred) shariat Islam with which it is closely but not exclusively associated. The higher forms of annihilation beyond Union might cause the Islamic Jurists concern and would through necessity be hidden. (i.e. Going beyond the usual understanding of what God is; beyond the duality God vs. us.)

· Buddhism was a reformation and the mystical essence of Vedanta in Hinduism. The inclusion of theistic elements within Buddhism were for expediency and popularity. The mystical tradition saw these as a means to arrive at true practise which ignored these superficial encrustations. (i.e. Using deities as a skillful means in certain cases.)

· Sufism is the mystical interpretation and expression of the prophetic revelation of Mohammed. The Sufis came into contact with a variety of teachings including Buddhism but kept through choice within the fold of Islam. Sufism sees a plan of evolvement for individuals, communities and the whole of society. (i.e. Aiming at a goal.)

· Buddhism sees a transitory universe that is unsatisfactory until the state of enlightenment is achieved. Buddhism regards the universes causation as result of ignorance and craving, leading to impermanence and unsatisfactory experience. (i.e. Trying to escape something, aiming for liberation.)

· Sufism experiences the universe as a result of Knowledge through which the finite is created to share the knowledge and experience of the Infinite.



Within each philosophy a graduated comprehension of nearness to completion keeps in mind a goal orientated system. (i.e. Both have a gradual path composed of adapted skillful means.)

· In Sufism some realised persons create the means for others to be brought to a similar understanding.

· In Buddhism this concept is exemplified in the Boddhisattva ideal.



The evolutionary trend within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic fold when seen in mystical terms becomes a process of change that counter-effects the worst excesses of the dogmatic religious bigots. (i.e. The danger of grasping at any adapted skillful means as if absolute. Vs. the danger of too much adaptation and loosing the essence.)

· The stress on self reliance and personal responsibility, the irrelevance of hierarchy and deity is allowing Buddhism to flourish in the West. It represents a pragmatic approach of self determination that appeals to the individuality of the present mentality. (i.e. Picking and choosing what please us in a religion.)



Those trying to import cultures and rituals that are meaningless to a different locality are limiting widespread adoption. (i.e. The need to adapt the teaching while realizing the relativity of these adaptations, and without loosing the essence.)

· Similar attempts in presenting Sufism without any adaptation results in equally inappropriate forms. (i.e. One religion cannot be forced onto a different culture.)

· However the essence in both cases is being studied, adopted and practised according to the inner imperative without any necessary adoption of cultural idiosyncrasies. It is inevitable that good meaning individuals confuse culture with a spiritual teaching. Those who have become Moslems or Buddhist often adopt irrelevant cultural forms along with the teaching. They may gain various emotional satisfactions from their new adoption. In truth they would have found similar satisfactions within their own culture. This inclination to import the cultural setting as well as the essence occurs with all immature adoption. (i.e. Those tat are fooled by the superficialities and exotism: they get only short term benefits.)



The superficial adoption of Sufi or Buddhist practises leads to partial improvements.

· The Divine Union of the Sufis leads to an emptying of self.

· The Buddhist enlightenment results in a void of self independent of Deity.

· The highest Sufi expression is also an emptying of emptiness and results in an absence even of Deity.



There is of course room for Islamic Sufism or any theocentric individual following Sufism whether Hindu, Jew or Christian. However is such a thing as Sufi Buddhism feasible, desirable or possible?

· Divergent and populist movements within Buddhism have elevated the Buddha to a cosmic principle. Aspects of Buddhist Tantra utilise the symbology of physical union.

· Similarly some Sufis focus on the inner meaning of physical love. Carnal love being reflective of a higher form.

· Equally Tantric Buddhism has utilised the obstacles and experiences of ordinary life as techniques of meditation and transcendence.

· Sufi practise is also often engaged in worldly activity from a higher perspective.

· It is important to understand that in the Islamic conception God is One. In the Sufi understanding this is expressed through diversity. (i.e. Oneness is only another adapted skillful means.)

· The Buddhist may be a theist if this is proved true for the individual.

· Sufism might openly assert that existence is a limitation, God is unlimited and therefore can be said to not exist in a knowable form. In this way the pantheistic vision of some Sufis, notably Ibn-Al-Arabi becomes superseded by a God both immanent and existent yet transcendentally non definable. (i.e. Beyond Oneness and Manyness. Beyond all description, beyond all conceptualization, beyond all conceptual dualities. Non-duality: not two, not one.)



The historical intolerance of the prophetic religions has never extended to her mystics. When people refine their selves, develop their attributes, virtues and finer qualities they stop imposing their limited vision on others. They see the inherent goodness in existence and attempt to amplify co-operation and discourse to enhance knowledge. (i.e. The realized ones are beyond all religions, beyond all dogma.)

· Some Buddhist mystics experience a theistic universe full of wonder and mystery.

· The sober practise of many dervish involves a movement away from the outer expression to an inner attunement. The dervish would see the following of the eight fold path as a natural consequence of improved psyche.



It is in a higher sense impossible for Sufism and Buddhism to be considered different. They are both pathways to an ultimate truth and reflect this in different ways. Their approach is very different and superficially contradictory. (i.e. The Middle Way: no absolute, only adapted skillful means. All adapted skillful means are not separate/different, but still not the same. Some push, some pull. But true enlightenment is beyond causality space and time.)

· The Dervish (i.e. an ascetic Muslim monk; a member of an order noted for devotional exercises involving bodily movements) is guided by the goal.

· The Buddhist is repulsed by the present ignorance. (i.e. and by the goal: Nirvana)



Mystic expression is dependent on the tools and cultures in which it arises but the experience is beyond this. At a certain level the numerous paths to truth become one path. Before then a path that ignores God or a path that adores God must be seen not as polarities but as means of travel. The results of both lead ultimately to beings whose knowledge is beyond the uncertainties of words.


==============

Gileht (in the name of the Bunny ;-)
Keynes
2003-09-24 02:40:36 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:32:48 -0400, "Gileht.com"
Post by Gileht.com
A VOID IN FANA - Buddhism and Sufism
http://tooting.webspace.fish.co.uk/inter/
Buddhism has assumed many forms including self-power and other-power.
The search for universal truth has taken many forms over the ages with
supposedly insurmountable differences in the paths. God and no-god
forms seem incompatible. Gradual and sudden paths seem contradictory.

In any case the ground must be prepared and a seed planted. In many
cases the seed will sprout and then whither. Occasionally it will grow
and suddenly bear fruit. The insight is a sudden happening.

Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition still contains the parable of Eden,
a quite buddhistic text showing how mankind lost his eternal life
through the ignorance of knowing good from bad. Mystics of that
tradition know that they carry man's original sinful nature, which
is a 'self'-ish view of the world. Ascetics strive to deny their own
sinful will. In time they may realize that even self-denial is an
assertion of self. Then they know that they are utterly damned
and incapable of an unselfish thought. At that impass they are
baffled and finally open to 'grace', the other-power of God.

The Buddha says nirvana is unborn, undying, uncaused, and
cannot be reached by striving. Striving is to be renounced,
grasping to be abandoned. Ultimately buddhistic awakening
is based on other-power just as the other traditions are.

Sufi stories and teaching now available in the west show
similar techniques to some of the buddhist ones. There
is the way of devotion, and the way of knowledge. The
knowledge aspect is very important but without some
devotion, a seeker is liable to sink deeper into the hell
of self-absorption. Theists can't afford to deny God
any more than buddhists can afford to deny nirvana.

Surviving sufi groups may or may not have the true light,
just as there are true and false zen masters and gurus.
Sufis claim their methods differ according to time and
place, and that sufism even predates Islam. Some
sufis have suffered martyrdom as heretics. Some
masters forbid music and dancing, while others use
them as practice. There have been many forms.

Sufi literature, particularly the stories (which are said
to have at least seven levels of meaning) can be quite
useful even for buddhists.

-----------------------------------------------------

A seeker was bragging to his master. "I traveled from
Alexandria in Egypt all the way to Bagdad, trusting
only in God, with a just single copper penny in my
pocket. When I reached Bagdad, I still had the penny!"

The master said, "Fool. How can you say you trusted
only in God and still travel with that cursed penny?"
Gileht.com
2003-09-24 04:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:32:48 -0400, "Gileht.com"
Post by Gileht.com
A VOID IN FANA - Buddhism and Sufism
http://tooting.webspace.fish.co.uk/inter/
Buddhism has assumed many forms including self-power and
other-power.

Yes. The whole guru devotion in Tibetan Buddhism is based on this
"other-power" skillful means which I think was imported from
Vedanta.
Post by Keynes
The search for universal truth has taken many forms over the ages with
supposedly insurmountable differences in the paths. God and
no-god
Post by Keynes
forms seem incompatible. Gradual and sudden paths seem
contradictory.
Post by Keynes
In any case the ground must be prepared and a seed planted. In many
cases the seed will sprout and then whither. Occasionally it will grow
and suddenly bear fruit. The insight is a sudden happening.
Yes. Many adapted skillful means but enlightenment is beyond
causality space and time.
Post by Keynes
Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition still contains the parable of Eden,
a quite buddhistic text showing how mankind lost his eternal life
through the ignorance of knowing good from bad.
I don't think this is "buddhistic". The duality between right and
wrong views (wisdom and ignorance) predates all religions. hey have
always said "I know the truth, you don,t." or "God spoke to me
directly, so don,t question me."
Post by Keynes
Mystics of that
tradition know that they carry man's original sinful nature, which
is a 'self'-ish view of the world.
The common point is the error of thinking that there is a self
existing inherently, independently of the rest (of the rest of the
world, or independently of God). They all work at removing this
illusion of an independent self one way or another.
Post by Keynes
Ascetics strive to deny their own
sinful will. In time they may realize that even self-denial is an
assertion of self.
Yes. They all agree that : Enlightenment, or God, is found only in m
an. Thus rejecting nihilism. This is like the Middle Way: not
accepting, not rejecting the world; but just trying to see its real
nature.
Post by Keynes
Then they know that they are utterly damned
and incapable of an unselfish thought. At that impass they are
baffled and finally open to 'grace', the other-power of God.
That seems to be the deists skillful means. But is it the only valid
skillful means? I don't think so.
Post by Keynes
The Buddha says nirvana is unborn, undying, uncaused, and
cannot be reached by striving. Striving is to be renounced,
grasping to be abandoned.
It is true that Liberation, or Enlightenment, is beyond causality,
beyond all conceptualization. This is said in all religions.
Post by Keynes
Ultimately buddhistic awakening
is based on other-power just as the other traditions are.
But here you go too far in trying to reduce Buddhism to deism.
In Mahayana Buddhism there is no "other-power", no more than
"self-power".
It is not because it is not self-power that it is other power. that
is falling into the trap.
And I think that is also the ultimate in Sufism.
The Union with God is only another adapted skillful means;
ultimately one has to realise that God and self are non-dual: not
two, not one. And thus go beyond Oneness.
Post by Keynes
Sufi stories and teaching now available in the west show
similar techniques to some of the buddhist ones. There
is the way of devotion, and the way of knowledge. The
knowledge aspect is very important but without some
devotion, a seeker is liable to sink deeper into the hell
of self-absorption.
That is the view of Deists and Tantrists. But that is not the view
of Hinayanists and Mahayanists.
In Mahayana, the self is not replaced by God, but by service to
others (Bodhicitta). And that is said to be sufficient. There is no
need for devotion to a God in Mahayana. But in tantra, devotion to
the Guru is used, as it is in some kind of Hinduism where everybody
is submitting to the Avatar.
Post by Keynes
Theists can't afford to deny God
any more than buddhists can afford to deny nirvana.
That is not exact.
It would not be true for Mahayana where even the duality samsara and
Nirvana is transcended.
And I think this is also the way it is done in Sufism: ultimately
the duality God vs. self is transcended. And this is not Oneness
either. it is beyond Oneness and Dualism.

Oneness is only an intermediary step, as like in Tantrayana. One has
to go even beyond that, and transcend the four extremes.

So a path with or without a God is still just another skillful
means. Reality is beyond all religions.
Post by Keynes
Surviving sufi groups may or may not have the true light,
just as there are true and false zen masters and gurus.
The true light is beyond all religions, beyond all dogma.
Post by Keynes
Sufis claim their methods differ according to time and
place, and that sufism even predates Islam.
Yes. No absolute path, obnly adapted skillful means.
Post by Keynes
Some
sufis have suffered martyrdom as heretics.
Most ordinary peple grasp at their path as an absolute and thus
fight others that do not share their absolute truths. We have many
of those ignorants around here.
Post by Keynes
Some
masters forbid music and dancing, while others use
them as practice. There have been many forms.
Sufi literature, particularly the stories (which are said
to have at least seven levels of meaning) can be quite
useful even for buddhists.
-----------------------------------------------------
A seeker was bragging to his master. "I traveled from
Alexandria in Egypt all the way to Bagdad, trusting
only in God, with a just single copper penny in my
pocket. When I reached Bagdad, I still had the penny!"
The master said, "Fool. How can you say you trusted
only in God and still travel with that cursed penny?"
lol ... still grasping at his backup solution.

Gileht
Gileht.com
2003-09-24 07:23:40 UTC
Permalink
In Mahayana Buddhism there is a practice called "Taking and Sending"
(Tonglen). There is an equivalent in sufism.

Tonglen is a Middle Way practice where one take the suffering of
others our of compassion and give everything (one's essence) out of
love to everybody (all sentient beings). The two aspects are one
practice of letting go of the self (meaning it is not existent) and
still not thinking it is completely non-existent either.

Here is the equivalent in sufism: see below

The point is that Sufism is also a path of the Middle Way between
existence and non-existence.

The Union with God is verysimilar to the Union of the Two Truths as
explained in Buddhism (Hinayana, Mahayana, Zen and Tantrayana) ...
and probably the same in many esoteric practices in many other
religions.

The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.

Gileht

===============

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week610/rupa.html

Read more of R & E's interview with Rupa Cousins about the Sufi
dance of the whirling dervishes:

In the [Sufi] lineage I trained in, the Mevlevi order, there are
students of Mevlana Jalaleddin Rumi. The dance of the whirling
dervishes symbolizes union with God. The right hand in this dance
reaches up to God, to the divine. The left hand reaches out to give.
The right hand receives energy. The left hand gives energy, and so
we're giving a blessing to the world as we turn.

In the whirling dance, the one who turns reaches to God -- it's as
if we're asking God to turn us. We're receiving with the right hand,
giving with the left hand, and bringing a blessing to ourselves and
to the world. We're like receivers and givers.

But we try to disappear when we do this dance. It's not about our
personality. We try to empty ourselves. And while we're doing the
dance, we're meditating on the name "Allah," or the name "God," just
to bring that oneness in, so that we're really wanting to be, in a
way, a channel.

Is it a trance state? It's beyond a trance state. We are
hyper-alert. We need to know where we are on the earth, especially
when we dance in a circle with other people. We need to be very
alert to where we are. At the same time, we need to be alert to the
gift that we're being given by doing this dance. It's an awakened
state, and it looks like a trance state. In a way, it is an altered
state. You move into this amazing place of oneness when you're
really connecting with that energy, but it's not a trance, because
you have to be very awake for it.

The pace depends on the music and the part in the celebration that
is happening. Sometimes it might be a slower pace, sometimes faster.
What's significant is that we turn to the left, with our weight on
the left foot. This creates an axis that goes through the body,
through the heart and into the earth. You could think of this whole
thing as one line of energy going from the divine into the earth.

I would say [the dance is] a prayer of thanksgiving. The turn is a
prayer. It is a moving prayer and a moving meditation. You are
absolutely in a one-pointed focus, and it is a prayerful state. It
is a way of coming into unity with God, coming into that oneness, a
feeling of, "I am not anymore. I am with God." That's the idea -- to
dissolve into the energy of God, into the energy of prayer.

There are other Sufis who may do a turn, but the type of turn that
I've been trained in is from the order of Rumi, the Mevlevi order.
That was because Rumi would turn in the ecstasy of saying his poems.
And so his students turned, and then they created a celebration
called a "sema," a celebration of Rumi's actual death and life --
his rebirth into life. It becomes a very formal, traditional
celebration, and a magnificent one.

When we dance, we directly honor Rumi. Usually, there is a
representative of Rumi in the form and presence of a sheikh, a
spiritual teacher from the Sufi lineage, who will sit in remembrance
of Rumi as we dance. We will bow to this sheikh before we begin the
whirling dance, and in that way bring in Rumi in a very direct,
heartfelt way.


==============

Gileht
Gileht.com
2003-09-24 07:44:22 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gileht.com"
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
still grasping at TRUTH. truth is illusionary and dukkha. there is
only a word
called truth. truth is not this word.
B
That is what I said. ;-)

Why don't you try to use your brain instead of looking for all
occasion to hurt others.

Gileht
Gileht.com
2003-09-24 08:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gileht.com
From: "Gileht.com"
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
still grasping at TRUTH. truth is illusionary and dukkha. there is
only a word
called truth. truth is not this word.
B
That is what I said. ;-)
Why don't you try to use your brain instead of looking for all
occasion to hurt others.
Gileht
Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,
there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'
doesn't make sense any more.

Jelaluddin Rumi
in Coleman Barks The Essential Rumi (Haper San Franscisco, 1995,) p.
36

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Islamic_esotericism/Sufism/Rumi.htm

Gileht
Raan
2003-09-25 08:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Eradicate all beliefs and the first to exterminate is that of the absolute
in all its forms, but this insidious evil creeps in everywhere and a
constant vigil must be maintained to guard against its stealthy intrusions.
(even here note the absolute terms inherent in the language) Nietzsche was
wrong. God is not dead.... yet. Best of luck with it.
--
*·.ž_ž.·'šš)
(_ž.·' Raan
Post by Gileht.com
In Mahayana Buddhism there is a practice called "Taking and Sending"
(Tonglen). There is an equivalent in sufism.
Tonglen is a Middle Way practice where one take the suffering of
others our of compassion and give everything (one's essence) out of
love to everybody (all sentient beings). The two aspects are one
practice of letting go of the self (meaning it is not existent) and
still not thinking it is completely non-existent either.
Here is the equivalent in sufism: see below
The point is that Sufism is also a path of the Middle Way between
existence and non-existence.
The Union with God is verysimilar to the Union of the Two Truths as
explained in Buddhism (Hinayana, Mahayana, Zen and Tantrayana) ...
and probably the same in many esoteric practices in many other
religions.
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
===============
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week610/rupa.html
Read more of R & E's interview with Rupa Cousins about the Sufi
In the [Sufi] lineage I trained in, the Mevlevi order, there are
students of Mevlana Jalaleddin Rumi. The dance of the whirling
dervishes symbolizes union with God. The right hand in this dance
reaches up to God, to the divine. The left hand reaches out to give.
The right hand receives energy. The left hand gives energy, and so
we're giving a blessing to the world as we turn.
In the whirling dance, the one who turns reaches to God -- it's as
if we're asking God to turn us. We're receiving with the right hand,
giving with the left hand, and bringing a blessing to ourselves and
to the world. We're like receivers and givers.
But we try to disappear when we do this dance. It's not about our
personality. We try to empty ourselves. And while we're doing the
dance, we're meditating on the name "Allah," or the name "God," just
to bring that oneness in, so that we're really wanting to be, in a
way, a channel.
Is it a trance state? It's beyond a trance state. We are
hyper-alert. We need to know where we are on the earth, especially
when we dance in a circle with other people. We need to be very
alert to where we are. At the same time, we need to be alert to the
gift that we're being given by doing this dance. It's an awakened
state, and it looks like a trance state. In a way, it is an altered
state. You move into this amazing place of oneness when you're
really connecting with that energy, but it's not a trance, because
you have to be very awake for it.
The pace depends on the music and the part in the celebration that
is happening. Sometimes it might be a slower pace, sometimes faster.
What's significant is that we turn to the left, with our weight on
the left foot. This creates an axis that goes through the body,
through the heart and into the earth. You could think of this whole
thing as one line of energy going from the divine into the earth.
I would say [the dance is] a prayer of thanksgiving. The turn is a
prayer. It is a moving prayer and a moving meditation. You are
absolutely in a one-pointed focus, and it is a prayerful state. It
is a way of coming into unity with God, coming into that oneness, a
feeling of, "I am not anymore. I am with God." That's the idea -- to
dissolve into the energy of God, into the energy of prayer.
There are other Sufis who may do a turn, but the type of turn that
I've been trained in is from the order of Rumi, the Mevlevi order.
That was because Rumi would turn in the ecstasy of saying his poems.
And so his students turned, and then they created a celebration
called a "sema," a celebration of Rumi's actual death and life --
his rebirth into life. It becomes a very formal, traditional
celebration, and a magnificent one.
When we dance, we directly honor Rumi. Usually, there is a
representative of Rumi in the form and presence of a sheikh, a
spiritual teacher from the Sufi lineage, who will sit in remembrance
of Rumi as we dance. We will bow to this sheikh before we begin the
whirling dance, and in that way bring in Rumi in a very direct,
heartfelt way.
==============
Gileht
Gileht.com
2003-09-25 08:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Thank you father Raan

Fakir Hazrat Abu Gileht Sa'eed al Kanata the third
Post by Raan
Eradicate all beliefs and the first to exterminate is that of the absolute
in all its forms, but this insidious evil creeps in everywhere and a
constant vigil must be maintained to guard against its stealthy intrusions.
(even here note the absolute terms inherent in the language)
Nietzsche was
Post by Raan
wrong. God is not dead.... yet. Best of luck with it.
--
*·.ž_ž.·'šš)
(_ž.·' Raan
Post by Gileht.com
In Mahayana Buddhism there is a practice called "Taking and
Sending"
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
(Tonglen). There is an equivalent in sufism.
Tonglen is a Middle Way practice where one take the suffering of
others our of compassion and give everything (one's essence) out of
love to everybody (all sentient beings). The two aspects are one
practice of letting go of the self (meaning it is not existent) and
still not thinking it is completely non-existent either.
Here is the equivalent in sufism: see below
The point is that Sufism is also a path of the Middle Way
between
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
existence and non-existence.
The Union with God is verysimilar to the Union of the Two Truths as
explained in Buddhism (Hinayana, Mahayana, Zen and Tantrayana) ...
and probably the same in many esoteric practices in many other
religions.
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion,
even
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
===============
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week610/rupa.html
Read more of R & E's interview with Rupa Cousins about the Sufi
In the [Sufi] lineage I trained in, the Mevlevi order, there are
students of Mevlana Jalaleddin Rumi. The dance of the whirling
dervishes symbolizes union with God. The right hand in this
dance
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
reaches up to God, to the divine. The left hand reaches out to give.
The right hand receives energy. The left hand gives energy, and so
we're giving a blessing to the world as we turn.
In the whirling dance, the one who turns reaches to God -- it's as
if we're asking God to turn us. We're receiving with the right hand,
giving with the left hand, and bringing a blessing to ourselves and
to the world. We're like receivers and givers.
But we try to disappear when we do this dance. It's not about our
personality. We try to empty ourselves. And while we're doing the
dance, we're meditating on the name "Allah," or the name "God," just
to bring that oneness in, so that we're really wanting to be, in a
way, a channel.
Is it a trance state? It's beyond a trance state. We are
hyper-alert. We need to know where we are on the earth,
especially
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
when we dance in a circle with other people. We need to be very
alert to where we are. At the same time, we need to be alert to the
gift that we're being given by doing this dance. It's an
awakened
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
state, and it looks like a trance state. In a way, it is an
altered
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
state. You move into this amazing place of oneness when you're
really connecting with that energy, but it's not a trance,
because
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
you have to be very awake for it.
The pace depends on the music and the part in the celebration that
is happening. Sometimes it might be a slower pace, sometimes
faster.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
What's significant is that we turn to the left, with our weight on
the left foot. This creates an axis that goes through the body,
through the heart and into the earth. You could think of this whole
thing as one line of energy going from the divine into the
earth.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
I would say [the dance is] a prayer of thanksgiving. The turn is a
prayer. It is a moving prayer and a moving meditation. You are
absolutely in a one-pointed focus, and it is a prayerful state. It
is a way of coming into unity with God, coming into that
oneness, a
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
feeling of, "I am not anymore. I am with God." That's the
idea -- to
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
dissolve into the energy of God, into the energy of prayer.
There are other Sufis who may do a turn, but the type of turn that
I've been trained in is from the order of Rumi, the Mevlevi
order.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
That was because Rumi would turn in the ecstasy of saying his poems.
And so his students turned, and then they created a celebration
called a "sema," a celebration of Rumi's actual death and
life --
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
his rebirth into life. It becomes a very formal, traditional
celebration, and a magnificent one.
When we dance, we directly honor Rumi. Usually, there is a
representative of Rumi in the form and presence of a sheikh, a
spiritual teacher from the Sufi lineage, who will sit in
remembrance
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
of Rumi as we dance. We will bow to this sheikh before we begin the
whirling dance, and in that way bring in Rumi in a very direct,
heartfelt way.
==============
Gileht
Raan
2003-09-25 18:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Glad you agree.
--
*·.ž_ž.·'šš)
(_ž.·' Raan
Post by Gileht.com
Thank you father Raan
Fakir Hazrat Abu Gileht Sa'eed al Kanata the third
Post by Raan
Eradicate all beliefs and the first to exterminate is that of the
absolute
Post by Raan
in all its forms, but this insidious evil creeps in everywhere and
a
Post by Raan
constant vigil must be maintained to guard against its stealthy
intrusions.
Post by Raan
(even here note the absolute terms inherent in the language)
Nietzsche was
Post by Raan
wrong. God is not dead.... yet. Best of luck with it.
--
*·.ž_ž.·'šš)
(_ž.·' Raan
Post by Gileht.com
In Mahayana Buddhism there is a practice called "Taking and
Sending"
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
(Tonglen). There is an equivalent in sufism.
Tonglen is a Middle Way practice where one take the suffering of
others our of compassion and give everything (one's essence) out
of
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
love to everybody (all sentient beings). The two aspects are one
practice of letting go of the self (meaning it is not existent)
and
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
still not thinking it is completely non-existent either.
Here is the equivalent in sufism: see below
The point is that Sufism is also a path of the Middle Way
between
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
existence and non-existence.
The Union with God is verysimilar to the Union of the Two Truths
as
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
explained in Buddhism (Hinayana, Mahayana, Zen and Tantrayana)
...
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
and probably the same in many esoteric practices in many other
religions.
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion,
even
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
===============
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week610/rupa.html
Read more of R & E's interview with Rupa Cousins about the Sufi
In the [Sufi] lineage I trained in, the Mevlevi order, there are
students of Mevlana Jalaleddin Rumi. The dance of the whirling
dervishes symbolizes union with God. The right hand in this
dance
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
reaches up to God, to the divine. The left hand reaches out to
give.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
The right hand receives energy. The left hand gives energy, and
so
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
we're giving a blessing to the world as we turn.
In the whirling dance, the one who turns reaches to God -- it's
as
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
if we're asking God to turn us. We're receiving with the right
hand,
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
giving with the left hand, and bringing a blessing to ourselves
and
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
to the world. We're like receivers and givers.
But we try to disappear when we do this dance. It's not about
our
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
personality. We try to empty ourselves. And while we're doing
the
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
dance, we're meditating on the name "Allah," or the name "God,"
just
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
to bring that oneness in, so that we're really wanting to be, in
a
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
way, a channel.
Is it a trance state? It's beyond a trance state. We are
hyper-alert. We need to know where we are on the earth,
especially
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
when we dance in a circle with other people. We need to be very
alert to where we are. At the same time, we need to be alert to
the
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
gift that we're being given by doing this dance. It's an
awakened
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
state, and it looks like a trance state. In a way, it is an
altered
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
state. You move into this amazing place of oneness when you're
really connecting with that energy, but it's not a trance,
because
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
you have to be very awake for it.
The pace depends on the music and the part in the celebration
that
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
is happening. Sometimes it might be a slower pace, sometimes
faster.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
What's significant is that we turn to the left, with our weight
on
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
the left foot. This creates an axis that goes through the body,
through the heart and into the earth. You could think of this
whole
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
thing as one line of energy going from the divine into the
earth.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
I would say [the dance is] a prayer of thanksgiving. The turn is
a
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
prayer. It is a moving prayer and a moving meditation. You are
absolutely in a one-pointed focus, and it is a prayerful state.
It
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
is a way of coming into unity with God, coming into that
oneness, a
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
feeling of, "I am not anymore. I am with God." That's the
idea -- to
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
dissolve into the energy of God, into the energy of prayer.
There are other Sufis who may do a turn, but the type of turn
that
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
I've been trained in is from the order of Rumi, the Mevlevi
order.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
That was because Rumi would turn in the ecstasy of saying his
poems.
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
And so his students turned, and then they created a celebration
called a "sema," a celebration of Rumi's actual death and
life --
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
his rebirth into life. It becomes a very formal, traditional
celebration, and a magnificent one.
When we dance, we directly honor Rumi. Usually, there is a
representative of Rumi in the form and presence of a sheikh, a
spiritual teacher from the Sufi lineage, who will sit in
remembrance
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
of Rumi as we dance. We will bow to this sheikh before we begin
the
Post by Raan
Post by Gileht.com
whirling dance, and in that way bring in Rumi in a very direct,
heartfelt way.
==============
Gileht
deadman1952
2003-09-26 06:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gileht.com
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
Ah, yes.

Here we see the real reasoning behind Gileht's passion for crossposting.

Joey
naked ape
2003-10-05 02:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by deadman1952
Post by Gileht.com
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
Ah, yes.
Here we see the real reasoning behind Gileht's passion for crossposting.
Joey
I don't know about the rest of his posts, but this one sounds right to me.
Religions aren't the truth, we are. .. Ape;)
Evelyn Ruut
2003-10-05 03:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by naked ape
Post by deadman1952
Post by Gileht.com
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
Ah, yes.
Here we see the real reasoning behind Gileht's passion for crossposting.
Joey
I don't know about the rest of his posts, but this one sounds right to me.
Religions aren't the truth, we are. .. Ape;)
Well said, Ape..... (and Gileht too).
--
Evelyn

"Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having
nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst
into laughter." -Longchenpa
(To reply to me personally, remove sox)
naked ape
2003-10-05 03:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Post by deadman1952
Post by Gileht.com
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
Ah, yes.
Here we see the real reasoning behind Gileht's passion for
crossposting.
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Post by deadman1952
Joey
I don't know about the rest of his posts, but this one sounds right to me.
Religions aren't the truth, we are. .. Ape;)
Well said, Ape..... (and Gileht too).
--
Evelyn
No concept is the carrier of life, and beyond life, what is there? Ape;)
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-05 04:08:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by deadman1952
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Post by deadman1952
Post by Gileht.com
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
Ah, yes.
Here we see the real reasoning behind Gileht's passion for
crossposting.
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Post by deadman1952
Joey
I don't know about the rest of his posts, but this one sounds right to
me.
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Religions aren't the truth, we are. .. Ape;)
Well said, Ape..... (and Gileht too).
--
Evelyn
No concept is the carrier of life, and beyond life, what is there? Ape;)
you're such an evil child
how will you ever grow up?
naked ape
2003-10-05 04:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by deadman1952
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Post by deadman1952
Post by Gileht.com
The truth is beyond all religions; to grasp at any religion, even
Buddhism is to miss the whole point.
Gileht
Ah, yes.
Here we see the real reasoning behind Gileht's passion for
crossposting.
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Post by deadman1952
Joey
I don't know about the rest of his posts, but this one sounds right to
me.
Post by Evelyn Ruut
Post by naked ape
Religions aren't the truth, we are. .. Ape;)
Well said, Ape..... (and Gileht too).
--
Evelyn
No concept is the carrier of life, and beyond life, what is there?
Ape;)
Post by Ch'an Fu
you're such an evil child
how will you ever grow up?
Don't hold your breath. I'm evolving backwards. .. Ape;)
*
Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child
seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live."
Saying 4, the Gospel of Thomas
Markus Maiwald
2003-10-04 13:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by naked ape
Post by naked ape
Religions aren't the truth, we are. .. Ape;)
*amused*
You´ve seen much books I think.
But did you really read or did you even watched them? Did you understand
them, or know them?
If you understand,
you will throw your books away...
coz you will see that religion doesn´t even matter.
If you KNOW
you will take your books again
live a religious live
Post by naked ape
No concept is the carrier of life, and beyond life, what is there? Ape;)
you missed the point.
so long as you speak of concepts, you have to throw your books away and
LIVE.
maybe then you KNOW
--
If you want to know how rich you are,
just count up all the things you have -
that money can´t buy!
--Daniel Webster
naked ape
2003-10-06 22:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Markus Maiwald
Post by naked ape
Post by naked ape
Religions aren't the truth, we are. .. Ape;)
*amused*
YouŽve seen much books I think.
But did you really read or did you even watched them? Did you understand
them, or know them?
I think so, but you be the judge. .. Ape;)
Post by Markus Maiwald
If you understand,
you will throw your books away...
coz you will see that religion doesnŽt even matter.
Should I throw you away? You're a book. .. Ape;)
Post by Markus Maiwald
If you KNOW
you will take your books again
live a religious live
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
Post by Markus Maiwald
Post by naked ape
No concept is the carrier of life, and beyond life, what is there?
Ape;)
Post by Markus Maiwald
you missed the point.
so long as you speak of concepts, you have to throw your books away and
LIVE.
maybe then you KNOW
No,you missed the point. I was refering to the concepts of another. ..
Ape;)
--
Post by Markus Maiwald
If you want to know how rich you are,
just count up all the things you have -
that money canŽt buy!
--Daniel Webster
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-06 22:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
naked ape
2003-10-06 22:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-06 23:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
is there something else?
naked ape
2003-10-07 05:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
is there something else?
I do know a few atheists, and yes, they are religious about their disbelief.
.. Ape;)
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-06 23:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
sorry.
i wrote, <<is there something else?>>
and i do tend to be terse.
most people live a "religious life"
their beliefs, concepts, ideas are their
"religion". ideas of 'self', 'country', 'right'
'wrong', 'this', 'that'. it's all religion.
how to step out of that is the question.
that's what buddhism is about.

a very very interesting part of it is
that it's basically amoral and a great
deal of sutta is involved in applying
a morality (albeit delicate and vastly general)
to the whole thing. it would have been
impossible to teach the "post hoc"morality
which is realized, so an "a priori" morality
was necessary. it's really kinda funny.

but i digress...

in the words of the Bronx masters,
"fagettaboutit"
naked ape
2003-10-07 05:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
sorry.
i wrote, <<is there something else?>>
and i do tend to be terse.
most people live a "religious life"
their beliefs, concepts, ideas are their
"religion". ideas of 'self', 'country', 'right'
'wrong', 'this', 'that'. it's all religion.
how to step out of that is the question.
that's what buddhism is about.
But Buddhism is a religion. There are aspects of it that require faith in
the supernatural. .. Ape;)
Post by Ch'an Fu
a very very interesting part of it is
that it's basically amoral and a great
deal of sutta is involved in applying
a morality (albeit delicate and vastly general)
to the whole thing. it would have been
impossible to teach the "post hoc"morality
which is realized, so an "a priori" morality
was necessary. it's really kinda funny.
but i digress...
in the words of the Bronx masters,
"fagettaboutit"
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-07 11:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
sorry.
i wrote, <<is there something else?>>
and i do tend to be terse.
most people live a "religious life"
their beliefs, concepts, ideas are their
"religion". ideas of 'self', 'country', 'right'
'wrong', 'this', 'that'. it's all religion.
how to step out of that is the question.
that's what buddhism is about.
But Buddhism is a religion. There are aspects of it that require faith in
the supernatural. .. Ape;)
not in this flavor of (whatever it is)
the boss said to chuck the damn raft,
not use it for an altar.
naked ape
2003-10-07 20:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
sorry.
i wrote, <<is there something else?>>
and i do tend to be terse.
most people live a "religious life"
their beliefs, concepts, ideas are their
"religion". ideas of 'self', 'country', 'right'
'wrong', 'this', 'that'. it's all religion.
how to step out of that is the question.
that's what buddhism is about.
But Buddhism is a religion. There are aspects of it that require faith in
the supernatural. .. Ape;)
not in this flavor of (whatever it is)
the boss said to chuck the damn raft,
not use it for an altar.
Have you chucked Buddhism, and if not, what to you still cling to? Ape;)
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-07 20:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
sorry.
i wrote, <<is there something else?>>
and i do tend to be terse.
most people live a "religious life"
their beliefs, concepts, ideas are their
"religion". ideas of 'self', 'country', 'right'
'wrong', 'this', 'that'. it's all religion.
how to step out of that is the question.
that's what buddhism is about.
But Buddhism is a religion. There are aspects of it that require faith
in
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
the supernatural. .. Ape;)
not in this flavor of (whatever it is)
the boss said to chuck the damn raft,
not use it for an altar.
Have you chucked Buddhism, and if not, what to you still cling to? Ape;)
never "had" it, actually.
everything comes and goes.
enjoy it while it's here.
MasterChef
2003-10-08 01:46:59 UTC
Permalink
naked ape wrote in message ...
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao?
Ape;)
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
Post by Ch'an Fu
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
Okay, what is a religious life? Ape;)
sorry.
i wrote, <<is there something else?>>
and i do tend to be terse.
most people live a "religious life"
their beliefs, concepts, ideas are their
"religion". ideas of 'self', 'country', 'right'
'wrong', 'this', 'that'. it's all religion.
how to step out of that is the question.
that's what buddhism is about.
But Buddhism is a religion. There are aspects of it that
require faith
Post by naked ape
in
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
the supernatural. .. Ape;)
not in this flavor of (whatever it is)
the boss said to chuck the damn raft,
not use it for an altar.
Have you chucked Buddhism, and if not, what to you still cling
to? Ape;)

chan fu aint no damed buddhist, if i may take the liberty to shit
if he's a buddhismist, i'm a liar
MasterChef
2003-10-07 00:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Ch'an Fu wrote in message
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
no, like now
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-07 00:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by MasterChef
Ch'an Fu wrote in message
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
no, like now
too late!
norbu_tragri
2003-10-07 09:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by MasterChef
Ch'an Fu wrote in message
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
no, like now
too late!
who is there to say?
n/one way an never no nother

(cue 'Strawberry Fields Forever'...)
MasterChef
2003-10-07 14:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by MasterChef
Ch'an Fu wrote in message
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
no, like now
too late!
damn you, chan fu
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-07 20:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by MasterChef
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by MasterChef
Ch'an Fu wrote in message
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by naked ape
What is a religious live? Does it follow the Tao? Ape;)
can anything do other than that?
Dao must include delusion as well
as truth. so Dao is whatever. Daoists
accept whatever as whatever. how is
that different from buddhists?
the "one whe sees" acts in the moment.
pretty ok, eh? just like now.
no, like now
too late!
damn you, chan fu
:) de nada
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